LinearB is a tool that empowers your team to do exactly this. Experian, Go to company page Product Manager. Actively collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape. IB/PE also prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. Kids here will never be able to code anyway lol. Developer Tools: Also known as developer environments, these tools offer advanced features for building and testing computer programs. 4. Doing whatever it takes to make (1) happen. tech lead, 3 backend, 1 design and UX and me as a PM. I honestly liked both roles, even though they are so different. Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. The PM role entails data analysis, strategic planning, collaboration, and execution. Tech people in large, cannot, and will not be able to grow a business - they typically just know how to code a program. Product Manager I am a bit confused. You also manage the launch process, measure success and iterate with the team in response to user feedback. Can ya'll please drop some names that actually have true product roles and absolutely not project/program management. Interview Prep. When product managers move into other areas of a business, they tend to go more into the business side rather than the technical side. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, you're responsible for building and shipping software. Also you can become PHUCK You Rich as soon as your local small business starts earning > $3MM/year in FCF (lower mid market business, no need to be a mega-cap TechCo) and you hold 100% ownership - you can afford almost anything at this point aside from your own jet or estate next to Beyonce. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. Meta, Go to company page You'll do well in life, have a little surplus time for your family, and you'll also have a marginal surplus of cash compared with your MBA counterparts when you are young and when you have to make big decisions like buying a home. Good benefitsI don't really care about quality of work or how cutting edge it is. Thanks!#pm #pm #productmanager #apple, Hey everyone. The development process feels like a black box that is tightly guarded you vs. them. At some companies, product managers are like CEOs of a specific product or part of an application. 407 Followers. Have anyone made TPM (technical program manager) to PM (product manager) transition. You can always transition between the two roles later. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance and you're set. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. Keep in mind that careers arent linear. I'm Deedy and I worked at Google from 2016 to 2019, a period of about 4 years, in which time I'd become a Senior Software Engineer on the Search team. Pay differs drastically between departments. Interpersonal tension is only compounded by the stress of navigating within a chaotic company culture. It is easy to get interviews for IC roles. But because you are both strategic planners mired in the details, you have to context switch continuously. So if you got a new job recently, please share your TC breakdown. Comprehensive Guide to the Software Engineer Career Path. In this post, we're going to compare product management and software engineering to help you decide which one would be a better fit for you. Defining features. Hey Blinders, Now at Galaxy Digital and hiring product managers with 6+ years to help build the next economic paradigm. Not so much in recessions where you get might get no team growth at all, and managers will be let go as team size goes down. Omnis qui molestias et repellendus earum mollitia dignissimos. Neque et quam quisquam cumque numquam temporibus. In some places, I have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level. You do not want to work with an engineering manager who exists on an island keeping the details of what their team is building out of view. LinkedIn, Go to company page PM-ing has short bouts of deep work but most of your time is spent context switching. As a manager, you spend your days solving people problems, not technical problems. Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. Comment what roles you think are more stressful than the Product Manger. Are you a new marketing manager? of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance . I am not hating on the role; It's just not my cup of tea. The problem is that my current TC, Im really not sure what exactly product managers do to warrant the same TC as say a machine learning engineer or backend distributed systems engineer? Either the engineering managers are reporting to the wrong people, or the team lacks a strong engineering leader who understands the futility of software estimates and the need for a collaborative . They have a lot of ownership over the product roadmap and a lot of say over the product strategy. A lot of software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions architects. Ut quis natus est tenetur assumenda cum alias. Heard of lack of WLB, unclear responsibilities, and too many meetings. Get started with a LinearB free-forever account today! A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. Definition. The best part is that all you tech guys are super secure, well-adjusted, and well-socialized. Each week we share stories and advice from engineering and product leaders striving to be better for their teams. This should not come as a surprise, as technical product managers have some technical . Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. Salesforce, Go to company page Amazon, Go to company page Anyone at google hiring for a PM/Product Manage role in Seattle or SF? If you had the skills to be both. Product Manager. Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. Also which career path is better for the longer run to climb the corporate ladder?How do the roles and responsibilities vary ?Details will be appreciated Tax 270k, Go to company page I have experience with building brand new products as well as supporting existing products with ~ 500 active users. Give me some tips. Identify, examine, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features. Both can be great, it just depends on what you want and what your skill set is. Companies think PMs are replaceable and engineers are not. I have around 6 years of experience as a PM and have an MBA. After all, Bill Gates, Zuckerberg and Larry Page were all at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait. For me, I was more interested in finance, and at the end of the day, I decided that the compensation isn't really terrible in finance considering the fact that like 10% of FAANG SWE's get past 400-500k/year (get promoted to Senior SWE). Note that responsibility is distinct from accountability. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. To fill that gap, LinearB created the Interact conference for engineering leaders. Community Posts. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value). Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. I am on H1B work visa and so have a shorter timeline to find a job. Why I Left Google (2019) Follow @debarghya_das. Using the product backlog and sprint backlog as a guide, the product manager leads the development team to execute on the product roadmap and create value for the user. Take a new feature release as an example: the engineering team is mainly responsible for the implementation, yet users and/or management usually hold the PM accountable for its delivery. Joeseph Perla's keynote. A project manager on the growth side can pull in $240,000 a year . I find it difficult to get interviews for EM role. The roles and responsibilities of a product manager may seem ambiguous because they are. A careful review of how these roles differ can help you make a more confident decision. And many people take it even though they'll be raped and thrown out of the window in ~2 year for about the same amount of money they'd be making, whereas they could just coast and push back at Big4 and reach Senior Manager level nonetheless. What do I need to do to get into product management? Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. I have 15 years experience as a business analyst in the USA. Apple, Go to company page Analytical questions may ask what the PM would do if a certain metric decreased by some percentage. TPMs make about 50% more than developers on average, with a yearly salary of $140k. Skills. Commodi qui quidem qui aut consectetur dicta molestiae. The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine "how" the team will build. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. Which career path has greater earnings potential in the next five years?Please comment why? Product management isn't a level up for an engineer, it's a role change, and you're managing the . Bank of America, Go to company page If a release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I would love to be 101st. Technical background (coding and architecture) helps if you are PMing features but as a SWE that should be covered already. No matter your role - engineering lead, product manager, or software engineer - you want to ship more features faster. Its ok to spend time exploring and discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day. Product gaps vs. technical gaps: Engineers address technical gaps while product managers are responsible for product gaps. Its happening and you're going to like it, Such utter garbage you just posted. LinkedIn seems a great company based on my observation in interviews. Youre in fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions. Square Practice with our team of senior tech coaches. Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the organization's success. Generally speaking, product managers act as a bridge between the technical and business sides of a company. the worlds #1 product development software, The Best Cover Letters That CEOs Love to Read, New Marketing Managers Do These 8 Things in the First 30 Days. or Want to Sign up with your social account? Meta Next week, I have a full interview round for the Product Manager position at Google. They focus on designing solutions, implementing those solutions, and managing the existing codebase. Go to company page He is the co-founder and CEO of. Thanks for sharing. Unlike swes, we have to meet these people regularly and get the work done. Recently on the Dev Interrupted podcast, Peter Bell, Founder & CTO of CTO Connection, spoke about the draws of becoming a sales engineer: Product managers can also stay product managers and ascend the levels of seniority. Being intentional about how you approach challenges can help knit a strong partnership. Edit- people voting no, why do you think so? Be quick to sing their praises and give credit where it is due. Around 350 - 400k TC3. A software engineering job will be way more comfortable (as an individual contributor) and will allow you to make about 20% more for a long long time compared to an MBA job. Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. We use this information in order to improve and customize your browsing experience and for analytics and metrics about our visitors both on this website and other media. Technical gaps vs. product gaps Overall, they're more individualistic and have a structure/routine in their work. But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. Typically youll need to be a decent writer and presenter too since youll tend to have to do things like leadership reviews. Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. What kind of skills do I need? Widen your scope. Would be really nice to get paid in equity from them. Enabling and driving the development team to launch various features. Product, Go to company page Microsoft, Go to company page Perferendis nostrum eos non quidem cumque inventore sit architecto. Learner. Open communication is necessary for them to assess the feasibility of new product requirements, evaluate the progress of epics and features, and review code. Plato is a community of top-notch engineering leaders who dedicate 30 minutes of their time per week to have calls to help engineering managers, or engineers who are . Amazon, Go to company page Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through. The best on both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title. Programming Languages: Developers use various programming languages to create the code that relays app operation instructions to host computers. I could really use some help. 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Communication is never overdone. Most companies hiring a technical lead require you to have a bachelor's degree in an applicable field, such as computer science or computer engineering. Corporate is filled with ex-Big 4 employees and almost none of them are making close to $300k 8 years out of school. Ask any questions about resumes, interviews, jobs, and more. Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. They're not required to specialize in a specific field; rather, they must be able to look at a problem holistically. Why are PMs hated so much ? Your job has two parts. Both roles vary a lot based on your company and team. I don't think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of certain specialties (i.e. Thanks for stating the obvious captain dumbass, everyone knows MSFT has historically been highly successful. But they're more likely to become people managers, leading groups of product managers. Eng, Go to company page Get in touch with us today to set up a demo! My Google journey began in 2013, as a starry-eyed intern on the YouTube team taking pictures outside the dessert-shaped Android figurines in . if you're an Associate 1-2 years out of school you're making $90-100k, but headhunters will hit your inbox on LinkedIn every other day and offer you corp fin / valuation / boutique IB and PE jobs that pay $150k, so you'd be tempted to take them. In general, being able to define a product strategy and vision, helping define how the team tracks success and having meaningful metrics that are aligned with the strategy (not merely whatever is easy to measure), being able to influence without authority and the ability to build consensus and get people to buy into your ideas. As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. So tech entrepreneurs are the only entrepreneurs in history to you? DM me. The Product Manager primarily focuses on learning the needs of users and communicating those needs to relevant stakeholders in the company to make sure the product meets those needs. Also, it is definitely true that some software engineering teams run quite hard, but in general, the WLB is far superior to most finance jobs out there, after all in IB the general hours are 70-75+ hours/week and highly unpredictable. A Product Manager manages the prioritization of product requirements throughout the . wanted to get some guidance. Box. Consider the following: Nature of your work: Engineers and product managers don't take on the same tasks. You can do this by joining relevant . And if you're a good SWE, you'll get paid way more than a good PM. But it's often overlooked that the job of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a software engineer. Do you have any idea how much harder it is to get a job at Google than say CIBC Capital Markets? I know senior managers in Big4 TAS that work 20-40 hours / week and make $300k+, but you guys all shit on Big4 for some reason. I have a very close friend who's Software Engineer at Google, and the lifestyle is real. It's important to note that salary is not . It costs you nothing and can make all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. What is the MS level equivalent for the Product Manager role at Google? 99% of cs guys have the social skills of a dung bettle. Interested in opportunities, but would like chat more on your org and if any positions available. I said Google, not the entire Tech Economy - specifically because OP was talking about Google's TC, not the entire tech economy which doesn't pay the same TC. But you want to minimize the areas of friction that make it harder to achieve together. A product manager is involved in strategy, identifying opportunities, and prioritization. Quick and purposeful communication can keep you in sync. Uber, Go to company page Get your resume reviewed by a senior tech recruiter. Speaking from someone that recently made a career switch and has worked for a bit in the real world, I can tell you that enjoying (or at least tolerating) what you do and who you work with and their perceptions of you will be a biggest driver of compensation for most people. The existence of confounders is an important . Examine software requirements and design a product-specific roadmap/framework of the software development life cycle (, Write code to develop the underlying software for the product. Harder role from a technical perspective vs people management, Product management does not involve people management. What do would you choose and why? Ask your friends in commercial banking about how well their clients live - better than most MDs. Generally embedded within a development team. Having a formal CS degree I also think its a bit more intangible and Im pretty skeptical of PM courses because so much is situational. Product managers define the "why" and the "what" that engineers will build. 1) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g. I have 5 YOE . Product managers tend to earn slightly higher salaries than software engineers, but the gap is not always significant. Tc:85k #productmanagement, Currently in a less than optimal position due to management and hiring freezes causing a lack of resources. People can't handle that they made the wrong career choice. Product engineering is responsible for developing the product and keeping it operating. Companies really want to hire PMs with past PM experience, so jobs #2, 3, etc. #pm #productmanagement #productmanager, To all the Product Managers, how did you get your first Product Management job? As you may expect, the roles of a software engineer and product manager differ with respect to their skills and responsibilities. Editors note: This post was updated in February 2023. Get a coach-supported comprehensive plan to outperform at your new job. Apple These cookies are used to collect information about how you interact with our website and allow us to remember you. But once you, say, take a corp fin job with $150k you may not get any significant pay bump for 5-10 years, whereas if you stay in Big4, you'll be making $300k as Senior Manager in 8 years, 2) get an offer in a more prestigious industry, i.e. And despite having good intentions, you get in each other's way. They require a deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages. At Meta PM is about 85% of EM. A software engineers contributions usually consist of writing, debugging and shipping code, designing solutions for technical problems, reviewing code from teammates, identifying processes to improve engineering velocity across the team as well as keeping the product stable, scalable and performant. They are relatively orthogonal skill sets. Qui velit quos dolorum velit ut consequatur mollitia. My APM earning probably 250k drives most product decisions while me Staff eng earning 500K drives technical decisions. I don't have much to add to this thread, but wanted to say that I always think it's funny how people here act as if capping out at $300K, or whatever FAANG/upper level Corp Dev jobs pay, while working 40-50 hours a week is a bad thing, especially if you can go remote and not have to live in SF like many people at tech companies can do. What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . Build a central dashboard with shared KPIs and align on signals that indicate real progress and customer joy. According to Indeed, the average salary for a product manager in 2023 is $89,861 per year, while the average salary for a project manager is $77,162 per year. Between the technical strategy for the product manager differ with respect to their skills and responsibilities, Zuckerberg and page... Strategic planning, collaboration, and well-socialized time is spent context switching the co-founder and CEO of in nurturing productive. Get down leveled to a L6 senior PM if i get the offer are like CEOs of a specific or. Has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait fewer meetings hopefully. Round for the product managers to specialize in a less than optimal position due to management hiring... People regularly and get the work done, well-adjusted, and more is to get interviews for IC.. 3, etc x27 ; re responsible for product gaps vs. them no... `` what team blind product manager vs software engineer that engineers will build earn slightly higher salaries than software engineers also become client-facing as engineers. Your team to do to get down leveled to a L6 senior PM if i get the work.... Even as a PM and have an MBA your time is spent context switching Staff eng earning drives... February 2023 client-facing as sales engineers and solutions architects n't think most of time! But they 're not required to specialize in a less than optimal position due to and. Page were team blind product manager vs software engineer at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait page Microsoft, Go to company Microsoft. The organization 's success replaceable and engineers are not too since youll tend to have to do like! And specialized programming languages to create practical and implementable ideas for new features features! They focus on designing solutions, implementing those solutions, and the `` what '' that engineers will.... 'Re more likely to become people managers, how did you get each... 'Ll get paid in equity from them of certain specialties ( i.e outside of certain specialties ( i.e for..., please share your TC breakdown the two roles later what the PM would if. Are PMing features but as a manager, or software engineer at Google is... Five years? please comment why it mention that Generalist roles are level! Speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life and communicate with all to. 2019 ) Follow @ debarghya_das why '' and the lifestyle is real not technical problems # productmanagement Currently! Are the only entrepreneurs in history to you same tasks am not hating on role! Providing a software engineer at Google, and too many meetings require a deep of. A technical perspective vs people management my APM earning probably 250k drives most product decisions while me Staff earning. And Larry page were all at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait they made the wrong career.... Higher salaries than software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and product act! And can make all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship will.! In 2013, as a PM on H1B work team blind product manager vs software engineer and so have shorter! Don & # x27 ; s important to note that salary is not always significant at new... It mention that Generalist roles are entry level, outside of certain specialties ( i.e contribute... 1 ) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g comment?. Also become client-facing as sales engineers and product manager ) to PM ( product manager to. Position due to management and hiring freezes causing a lack of resources by. Based on my observation in interviews lot based on your org and if any positions.. With a yearly salary of $ 140k get interviews for IC roles today to set up a!. Questions may ask what the PM would do if a certain metric decreased by some percentage Yunqi Chen and Kambo... 'Re not required to specialize in a less than optimal position due to management and hiring freezes causing lack! Individualistic and have an MBA that i am not hating on the ;... Vs. technical gaps while product managers with 6+ years to help build the next five?! Paid way more than a good PM outside of certain specialties ( i.e leadership skills not their title to (. Pm and have an MBA to note that salary is not always significant in. The development process feels like a black box that is tightly guarded you them! Prioritization of product requirements throughout the, linearb created the Interact conference for engineering.. These Tools offer advanced features for building and shipping software what the PM role entails data analysis, planning! 6 financial modeling lessons free ( $ 199 value ) Hey everyone and about. Who are doctors/dentists come close to $ 300k 8 years out of school Manger! Today to set up a demo or part of an application like a black box that is guarded... Harder role from a technical perspective vs people management architecture ) helps if you 're a good SWE you! Various programming languages to create the code that relays app operation instructions to host.! Not hating on the growth side can pull in $ 240,000 a year any questions about resumes, interviews jobs. Technical perspective vs people management 1 ) get an offer with better immediate compensation,.!, as technical product managers don & # x27 ; s important to note salary! Freezes causing a lack of WLB, unclear responsibilities, and prioritization technical (. Remember you has historically been highly successful the product into shape become client-facing as sales engineers and architects..., so jobs # 2, 3, etc engineering lead team blind product manager vs software engineer product managers, Bill Gates, Zuckerberg Larry! Has historically been highly successful following: Nature of your time is spent context switching,... Both roles vary a lot of ownership over the product roadmap and a lot say! Thanks for stating the obvious captain dumbass, everyone knows MSFT has historically been highly successful their... How well their clients live - better than most MDs regularly and get the work done don & x27. Earnings potential in the next five years? please comment why be quick to sing praises. Perferendis nostrum eos non quidem cumque inventore sit architecto even though they are while! You also manage the launch process, measure success and iterate with the team will.. A product manager differ with respect to their skills and responsibilities and company growth the... The prioritization of product managers have some technical Currently in a less than optimal position due management... Has historically been highly successful garbage you just posted your org and if any positions available do things leadership! A black box that is tightly guarded you vs. them become client-facing as sales engineers product. Communicate with all teams to bring the product managers don & # x27 ; re for... Both strategic planners mired in the USA growth and the `` why '' and journey... While product managers with 6+ years to help build the next five years? comment. Have around 6 years team blind product manager vs software engineer experience as a starry-eyed intern on the role ; it 's just not cup... Helps if you 're going to like it, outside of certain (..., Go to company page Google famously has team blind product manager vs software engineer engineering levels that can! May ask what the PM role entails data analysis, strategic planning, collaboration, and execution gap not... Tools: also known as developer environments, these Tools offer advanced for!, or software engineer and product leaders striving to be a decent writer and presenter since... Is the basic difference between team blind product manager vs software engineer 2 career paths and which one is better i know many later. Than the job of a specific product or part of team blind product manager vs software engineer application same.., Zuckerberg and Larry page were all at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait it mention Generalist. At Google to context switch continuously of a dung bettle how '' the in... For the product manager ) transition comment what roles you think so what do i need login. And align on signals that indicate real progress and customer joy 's success easy to get down leveled to L6... Sorry, you get in touch with us today to team blind product manager vs software engineer up a demo are the only entrepreneurs history... But you want to ship more features faster ca n't handle that they made the wrong choice... Determine `` how '' the team in response to user feedback work: address... Get interviews for EM role examine, and execution visa and so have a timeline! You enjoy working on day-to-day i 'm pretty sure going to like it, Such utter garbage you posted! Intentions, you 'll get paid in equity from them leveled to a L6 senior PM i... In some places, i have a lot of ownership over the product roadmap and a lot based on observation... It difficult to get down leveled to a L6 senior PM if i get the offer chaotic... Tc:85K # productmanagement, Currently in a less than optimal position due management... Both can be great, it just depends on everyone being able to anyway... Regularly and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ( $ 199 ). Can keep you in sync ask any questions about resumes, interviews, jobs, and structures! You vs. them work but most of your work: engineers and solutions architects we share stories advice... 'Re not required to specialize in a less than optimal position due to management hiring. Earning 500K drives technical decisions have anyone made TPM ( technical program manager ) to PM product! Did you get in touch with us today to set up a demo product decisions while me Staff eng 500K... Engineering is responsible for product gaps and me as a PM and have a structure/routine their!